Another points out she has a chip on her shoulder and Ms. Armistead says she does have a "chip on her shoulder" and acts like "an ass."

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From: Technomom@see.sig.for.address (Cynthia Armistead-Smathers)
Newsgroups: mindspring.discussion
Subject: Re: Here we go again -- was Re: Crack for L-View Pro?
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:42:08 GMT
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On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:11:56 -0600, KRLynn wrote:

>Cyn, I think you're a peach. So this isn't meant as a shot at you. But
>something that annoys hell out of _me_ is having women, or Moslems, or
>Catholics, or atheists, or non-midwesterners, or non-Americans, or any
>other individuals belonging to any class in which I happen not to share
>membership projecting assumptions in my direction based on broader
>assumptions having to do with some class to which I _do_ belong but to
>which the said projecting assumers do not.

>You say, "there have always been big differences in how people react..."
>Is that intended to mean all people? If so, it surely exaggerates. If
>not, it would be better to say "some" people, and then we could explore
>whether it is more of one kind than another.

Not all people, but a lot of them. I didn't say you. I didn't pick
anyone out by name (okay, I'll go ahead and pick Hillyard out by name
<G>). But it happens to a significant number of women who are visible
in any online community, in too many forums too assume that a minute
number of jerks are carrying it out. There's plenty of research out
there about gender differences in ANY form of communication--do you
disagree with that research? On what basis? If not, why do you
disagree with it with regards to online communication?

>I am an asshole sometimes. I think it's because I have the gene for it.
>You, on the other hand, while being a kind and generous soul, sometimes
>seem to have a small chip on your shoulder with respect to issues
>regarding how you are perceived and treated on account of your status as
>a woman, and also with respect to the subject of Christianity. (For what
>it's worth, I come closest to being an agnostic pantheist myself, so this
>is not about your having stepped on my toes in any discussion of
>religion.)

I might well have a chip or two on my shoulders. And I know perfectly
well that I am an ass, but as I mentioned to Floyd it is plausible to
believe every one of us is an asshole, and to do the best we can
recognizing that fact.

And I'll happily admit that because I so hate the assumption that
"everyone" is, of course, Christian, or straight, or whatever you want
to pick, that when I see a post making such assumptions I'm very
likely to respond and try to open people's minds a bit. I do the same
thing when people make such assumptions in conversation in the meat
world--at least there I get to enjoy the looks on their faces.

>Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just stating opinions here. But if I'm right, it
>(the alleged, tiny chip) probably has to do with your life experience. My
>point, then, would be that (especially if you do not like being subjected
>to stereotypes) you should be careful about what broad assumptions you
>draw from that experience, and how you go about projecting from it.

I'd suggest that until you go through a significant period of time as
a woman, and I go through a similar period as a man, we aren't going
to absolute _know_ what the opposite sex experiences. Obviously I've
formed my opinion from my experiences and that of other people I know,
and I assume you've formed yours the same way.

Starting with serious online transvestism (not just playing "Karrie"
here <G>) might be a bit of an education to you. The quickest way to
see the difference is in any live chat forum (IRC or whatever) but it
happens in newsgroups and even in the way folks respond to web pages,
too. And it happens on mailing lists--even those made up of folks
who've consciously tried to avoid gender or other bias.

For a long time I was on a mailing list that exists to discuss
relationships--polyamorous relationships, to be exact. Folks on the
list range from actively poly to a wee bit curious but in long-time
(20+ years) monogamous relationships. There are more openly queer
people there than in most other groups in which I've participated.
There were people of all religious backgrounds (including an
Episcopalian priest, a Baptist minister, a Jewish Rabbi, several very
assertive atheists, and too many pagan clergy to count( and various
countries and races.

Some participants very deliberately avoided any gender references in
their posts--I will probably never know if they were involved with men
or women or both. Several folks never identified themselves as male or
female. It was interesting to note that 1) even in a forum in which it
_shouldn't_ matter what the other participants look like, or whether
they're male or female, many people found it very disconcerting to
talk to someone without knowing if that person was a he or a she; 2)
the same question couched without gender references would get a very
different response from one, for instance, that stated that the
parties involved were male and female, and different from one
portraying the characters as two males, or two females, or any mix >2.
I was suprirsed to find that even when consciously trying to avoid any
bias, I reacted to the same anecdote differently depending on the
gender of those involved. Ever since I've tried to reframe such things
in my mind, asking myself "would I think the same thing if this were a
man/woman/etc.?"

Try going through just one day with no gender-specific references.
It's awkward. It feels wrong. And it's enlightening (no, you can't use
the pronoun "he" as non-gendered, although it is proper usage in most
cases--the neutral pronoun "ve" is the one I see used most
frequently).

>I haven't been around here very long, but it's a little amazing me to
>hear that anyone would label you as a "whore" (or anything else along the
>along the same pejorative lines) on account of your getting risque in
>this forum. If anyone has, isn't it worth considering that the
>individual(s) involved (Stuey for instance) ought to be dismissed as
>aberrants without the drawing of any broader conclusions. Assholes and
>derelicts come in all shapes, sizes, colors and sexes.

I've heard too otherwise many "nice folks" (including family members)
make such judgements without a moment's thought. Perhaps I find myself
around more judgemental people in general than you do--I'm unlikely to
ever know. I don't quite count Hillyard or Stuey as people, so I don't
factor them into that sample. I wouldn't say it if it didn't happen.

>I'm no Pollyanna, but I think we sometimes tend to see that which we
>expect to see.

And sometimes we don't see what we don't want to know. It works both
ways.

Let me ask you a few questions. How long have you been online (not
just on MindSpring)? In that time, how many sexually explicit
non-commercial messages/offers have you received from strangers? How
many people have been inordinately curious as to what you look like or
your marital status? How many times has someone who disagreed with you
made repeated reference to your physical appearance?

I'm not claiming that only women get harassed, or that all or even
most men harass anyone, ever--but that on average women get far more
negative attention than men for the same comments/behavior.

Cyn
--technomom@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~cynthia